Comments on: Leopard, Java, and Open Source http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/ Open Source, Modern Programming Languages, OS X, Photography, and ... Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:31:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Aaron http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7687 Aaron Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:15:27 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7687 Agree 100% that the lack of Java on OS X is directly related to the fact that J2SE and the JVM are not (were not) open source. While it wouldn't immediately solve the Java 6 issue, I wish Apache Harmony ran on OS X. At the moment, I don't have any time do to anything other than wish. Agree 100% that the lack of Java on OS X is directly related to the fact that J2SE and the JVM are not (were not) open source. While it wouldn’t immediately solve the Java 6 issue, I wish Apache Harmony ran on OS X. At the moment, I don’t have any time do to anything other than wish.

]]> By: bayareaguy http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7130 bayareaguy Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:55:00 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7130 Tim, dave and Mj all hit the target: Java is harder to maintain because of gui issues. The other languages mentioned generally punt on that, which is why we still have silly (but useful) stuff like Tk bundled with python. That said, I was pleased that the python that comes with OSX 10.5 includes a more recent wxPython library. Tim, dave and Mj all hit the target: Java is harder to maintain because of gui issues.

The other languages mentioned generally punt on that, which is why we still have silly (but useful) stuff like Tk bundled with python.

That said, I was pleased that the python that comes with OSX 10.5 includes a more recent wxPython library.

]]> By: Steve http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7118 Steve Sun, 30 Dec 2007 08:32:50 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7118 Don't forget Aquataxx is written in Cocoa Java and comes with complete source code. It was completely natural and fun writing this game in Java with Cocoa, and now I sit with the Objective-C 2.0 documentation in front of me, shaking my head. Objective-C is wonderful. I realize this. It's just not the same. I see Java as a step down from the craziness of C++ with pretty much the same familiar syntax, and I see Objective-C as a language that is a little too platform-specific. If Apple were to port Cocoa to Windows (like they haven't already), this would be a big win-win. I'd take a job in Cupertino working on the Java bridge if necessary, but probably lack the requisite knowledge and experience. I hope Apple reconsiders. Ruby looks like a (neat) scripting language; these are not the same concepts here. Don’t forget Aquataxx is written in Cocoa Java and comes with complete source code. It was completely natural and fun writing this game in Java with Cocoa, and now I sit with the Objective-C 2.0 documentation in front of me, shaking my head. Objective-C is wonderful. I realize this. It’s just not the same. I see Java as a step down from the craziness of C++ with pretty much the same familiar syntax, and I see Objective-C as a language that is a little too platform-specific. If Apple were to port Cocoa to Windows (like they haven’t already), this would be a big win-win. I’d take a job in Cupertino working on the Java bridge if necessary, but probably lack the requisite knowledge and experience. I hope Apple reconsiders. Ruby looks like a (neat) scripting language; these are not the same concepts here.

]]> By: jayson http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7066 jayson Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:15:07 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-7066 This problem is like Apache on Tiger, that was hard to upgrade by myself in Apache2 and Php5 without Mamp for increase my php codes but most small business are still on old fedora, apache 1.3 and tomcat. But i think the Java 6 is a real probleme for Hi-Level developers but when it will run on Mac, it's will work, as a mac... I prefer wait than switching on windows, linux is great for java, but if i want java6, i use Solaris, RedHat... Well, Java 6 isn't it experimental? Is there so much apps in J6? Most services runs on Java 1.4 or 1.5, Java2 v6 is great but it's like Perl 5.8.8 or python 2.5, market is not so geek has we think (i work in france so i know what i'm talking about, i see so much php3 and VB6 at office that i feel like in middle age). Sun is in case too, apple is not inventor of java and Sun dosen't seams to make any effort to offer mac tools (do they feel concurency?) because as mac is bsd based, comparaison to unix is quite easy. Why Sun spend time to develop for Windows and not for Mac? it tkae for effort and time i think furthemore, most windows coders are using VB, WinDev (that olso seams to ignore unix) and C++ and makes web apps in C# till they taste .net (shame). So This problem is like Apache on Tiger, that was hard to upgrade by myself in Apache2 and Php5 without Mamp for increase my php codes but most small business are still on old fedora, apache 1.3 and tomcat.
But i think the Java 6 is a real probleme for Hi-Level developers but when it will run on Mac, it’s will work, as a mac…
I prefer wait than switching on windows, linux is great for java, but if i want java6, i use Solaris, RedHat…
Well, Java 6 isn’t it experimental? Is there so much apps in J6?
Most services runs on Java 1.4 or 1.5, Java2 v6 is great but it’s like Perl 5.8.8 or python 2.5, market is not so geek has we think (i work in france so i know what i’m talking about, i see so much php3 and VB6 at office that i feel like in middle age).
Sun is in case too, apple is not inventor of java and Sun dosen’t seams to make any effort to offer mac tools (do they feel concurency?) because as mac is bsd based, comparaison to unix is quite easy.
Why Sun spend time to develop for Windows and not for Mac? it tkae for effort and time i think furthemore, most windows coders are using VB, WinDev (that olso seams to ignore unix) and C++ and makes web apps in C# till they taste .net (shame).
So

]]> By: mj http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6874 mj Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:54:26 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6874 One thing that seems slightly ignored was the fact that Java did rely on Carbon before and with Leopard Carbon is seriously deprecated - and was only deprecated recently (like the killing of 64-bit Carbon). It need work. And, to be honest, Sun should be helping out here. It's not just on Apple's door. One thing that seems slightly ignored was the fact that Java did rely on Carbon before and with Leopard Carbon is seriously deprecated - and was only deprecated recently (like the killing of 64-bit Carbon).

It need work. And, to be honest, Sun should be helping out here. It’s not just on Apple’s door.

]]> By: Walt French http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6872 Walt French Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:20:54 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6872 Mebbe I'm WAAAAY over my head here. But what's the likelihood that Apple is trying to put the LLVM technology inside the Java SDK / JVM ? That might take a bit more effort than a simple recompile of public sources, but turn the Mac into a premier tool for Java. Mebbe I’m WAAAAY over my head here. But what’s the likelihood that Apple is trying to put the LLVM technology inside the Java SDK / JVM ? That might take a bit more effort than a simple recompile of public sources, but turn the Mac into a premier tool for Java.

]]> By: dave http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6870 dave Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:49:12 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6870 TextMate is ObjC... It's used for ruby dev... although NetBeans 6 looks pretty good as well. The key hard part of doing an OSS port of java to OSX is the GUI stuff. X11 only would be a disaster from a UI point of view... I'd rather wait a year or so for j6 that uses aqua than get it right away with x11. This is the big difference with ruby/python. They don't have GUI's as part of their platform so of course they are a quick recompile. TextMate is ObjC… It’s used for ruby dev… although NetBeans 6 looks pretty good as well.

The key hard part of doing an OSS port of java to OSX is the GUI stuff. X11 only would be a disaster from a UI point of view… I’d rather wait a year or so for j6 that uses aqua than get it right away with x11.

This is the big difference with ruby/python. They don’t have GUI’s as part of their platform so of course they are a quick recompile.

]]> By: Eric Foster-Johnson http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6868 Eric Foster-Johnson Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:31:59 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6868 In the corporate world, most Java apps are server-side apps that appear to users as web apps. In my work, the vast majority of servers these apps are deployed on run Unix or Linux. But, due to the nature of Java (as well as many other languages), you can develop Java on most any desktop platform, such as Windows. Most companies provide Windows boxes for all their developers. Many of us, though, find the Mac more productive. I can develop the same Java apps on my Mac as I could on Windows (or Linux). I can therefore introduce Macintosh computers into a previously all-Windows environment. That's the win for Apple. For me, the main issue is not that Apple isn't shipping Java 6. The issue is that Apple isn't telling me any idea of when it will, or even whether it will. A statement from Apple as simple as "planned for Q3 2008" would be more than sufficient. In the corporate world, most Java apps are server-side apps that appear to users as web apps.

In my work, the vast majority of servers these apps are deployed on run Unix or Linux. But, due to the nature of Java (as well as many other languages), you can develop Java on most any desktop platform, such as Windows. Most companies provide Windows boxes for all their developers.

Many of us, though, find the Mac more productive. I can develop the same Java apps on my Mac as I could on Windows (or Linux). I can therefore introduce Macintosh computers into a previously all-Windows environment. That’s the win for Apple.

For me, the main issue is not that Apple isn’t shipping Java 6. The issue is that Apple isn’t telling me any idea of when it will, or even whether it will. A statement from Apple as simple as “planned for Q3 2008″ would be more than sufficient.

]]> By: Clark http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6867 Clark Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:07:40 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6867 <i>There aren’t any important apps for the Mac written in Ruby...</i> Isn't TextMate, arguably the most popular text editor for the Mac, partially written with Ruby? There aren’t any important apps for the Mac written in Ruby…

Isn’t TextMate, arguably the most popular text editor for the Mac, partially written with Ruby?

]]> By: Clark http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6866 Clark Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:03:16 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6866 How hard would it be to have a port of a Linux like Java implementation that uses X11 on OSX? How hard would it be to have a port of a Linux like Java implementation that uses X11 on OSX?

]]> By: Todd Blanchard http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6865 Todd Blanchard Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:31:39 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6865 The gnashing of teeth is really premature. Java is coming to Leopard. It is announced. Obliquely, but announced. http://developer.apple.com/tools/webobjects/index.html <blockquote>WebObjects 5.4 for Leopard is the newest release, adding many enhancements including improved support for rich Web applications and enhanced integration with the ANT build system. WebObjects is included as part of the Xcode installation, and the Java JDK is installed with Mac OS X, making it easy for any Mac user to begin developing. Leopard Server installs the WebObjects runtime by default, providing a great foundation on which to deploy your applications.</blockquote> WebObjects is written in Java. How will they ship 5.4 without a working stack on Leopard? They can't. Stay tuned - this is a non-issue. Expect Java for Leopard within about 6 months (the usual WebObjects lag behind everything else). The gnashing of teeth is really premature. Java is coming to Leopard. It is announced. Obliquely, but announced.

http://developer.apple.com/tools/webobjects/index.html

WebObjects 5.4 for Leopard is the newest release, adding many enhancements including improved support for rich Web applications and enhanced integration with the ANT build system. WebObjects is included as part of the Xcode installation, and the Java JDK is installed with Mac OS X, making it easy for any Mac user to begin developing. Leopard Server installs the WebObjects runtime by default, providing a great foundation on which to deploy your applications.

WebObjects is written in Java. How will they ship 5.4 without a working stack on Leopard? They can’t. Stay tuned - this is a non-issue. Expect Java for Leopard within about 6 months (the usual WebObjects lag behind everything else).

]]> By: JulesLt http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6863 JulesLt Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:34:40 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6863 My pennies worth. The Ruby & Python GUI implementations sit on top of Cocoa via the bridge. The Java runtime, on the other hand, is a peer to Cocoa in the OS X architecture - i.e. it sits directly on top of Quartz. (Although Millenomi's comment suggests differently - that AWT sits on top of Cocoa?). There are probably a number of sound architectural reasons for this (performance is probably the main one). The Ars Technica review implies that quite a lot has gone on in terms of changing the way the native widgets are constructed in OS X. Now I've no idea what layer that's been implemented - if in Quartz, then the impact should be minimal, but if in Cocoa then presumably that work needed duplicating in Java - both 5 and 6. It's this that makes implementing open source Java on OS X a pain. Perhaps if there was a strong focus on something like the native GTK port, with backing from people with a serious investment in Java desktop applications - i.e. the Eclipse Foundation. Splitting out a server side only Java 6 may sound like a solution (you could run Java 6 web apps which is the important use case) BUT I guess there would be difficulties using an IDE to debug. Although all we actually want is a simple statement - 'it is coming as soon as it passes QA'. We can handle late, what we can't handle is being late and not telling your customers (imagine if most of us in the development trade did that? Well, people buying Apple machines to develop third party software ARE customers). It's the iPhone SDK story all over again - a vacuum of information leading to PR-damaging speculation. (Do you really need an NDA on an already published language??) My pennies worth. The Ruby & Python GUI implementations sit on top of Cocoa via the bridge.

The Java runtime, on the other hand, is a peer to Cocoa in the OS X architecture - i.e. it sits directly on top of Quartz. (Although Millenomi’s comment suggests differently - that AWT sits on top of Cocoa?).

There are probably a number of sound architectural reasons for this (performance is probably the main one).

The Ars Technica review implies that quite a lot has gone on in terms of changing the way the native widgets are constructed in OS X. Now I’ve no idea what layer that’s been implemented - if in Quartz, then the impact should be minimal, but if in Cocoa then presumably that work needed duplicating in Java - both 5 and 6.

It’s this that makes implementing open source Java on OS X a pain. Perhaps if there was a strong focus on something like the native GTK port, with backing from people with a serious investment in Java desktop applications - i.e. the Eclipse Foundation.

Splitting out a server side only Java 6 may sound like a solution (you could run Java 6 web apps which is the important use case) BUT I guess there would be difficulties using an IDE to debug.

Although all we actually want is a simple statement - ‘it is coming as soon as it passes QA’. We can handle late, what we can’t handle is being late and not telling your customers (imagine if most of us in the development trade did that? Well, people buying Apple machines to develop third party software ARE customers).

It’s the iPhone SDK story all over again - a vacuum of information leading to PR-damaging speculation.
(Do you really need an NDA on an already published language??)

]]> By: Ted Leung http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6862 Ted Leung Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:31:12 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6862 Welcome Daring Fireballers! The main point of my post was not about whether Java is important on the Mac (although I think it is, just not as important as some are making it out to be). I've been involved in talking to lots of parties about open sourcing software, and the situation with the JDK on Leopard is a perfect example of why people should care that platform/runtime software be open source. Welcome Daring Fireballers!

The main point of my post was not about whether Java is important on the Mac (although I think it is, just not as important as some are making it out to be).

I’ve been involved in talking to lots of parties about open sourcing software, and the situation with the JDK on Leopard is a perfect example of why people should care that platform/runtime software be open source.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6860 Daniel Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:22:05 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6860 Java may be the best (or only) way to write enterprise apps for the Mac but this java thing is simply another example that Apple doesn't care about enterprise. It isn't a market they have much presence in and because it is mostly about price (cheap) it isn't one they want to be in. This relegates Java to a 'nice to have' and I'm not surprised it isn't in 10.5.0 Java may be the best (or only) way to write enterprise apps for the Mac but this java thing is simply another example that Apple doesn’t care about enterprise. It isn’t a market they have much presence in and because it is mostly about price (cheap) it isn’t one they want to be in.
This relegates Java to a ‘nice to have’ and I’m not surprised it isn’t in 10.5.0

]]> By: Bob http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6859 Bob Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:19:34 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6859 "On a geek mac blog, why would an upset java developer be any less important in the mac universe than a disgrunted photographer?" "I haven’t gotten around to upgrading to Leopard yet for several reasons, probably the most prominent of which is that Lightroom doesn’t work correctly, and I’m starting to use it a lot" Clearly a disgruntled java developer isn't less important. But a disgruntled java developer isn't MORE important either. I don't see anyone declaring that Adobe has abandoned photographers because Lightroom doesn't work on OS X on day 1. Sure, Java JDK is Apple's animal to ship, but Apple has a long history of shipping JDKs independently of OS. The issue isn't that Java devs don't count. The issue is that some Java devs want to play the role of dramatic victim here by declaring with all possible shrillness that Apple doesn't love them. Gruber's point remains. Get over yourselves. Recognize that the language/framework/operating system that Sun has put forward is harder to integrate in the spirit that it was intended than almost anything else out there and simply wait for the JDK to ship. “On a geek mac blog, why would an upset java developer be any less important in the mac universe than a disgrunted photographer?”

“I haven’t gotten around to upgrading to Leopard yet for several reasons, probably the most prominent of which is that Lightroom doesn’t work correctly, and I’m starting to use it a lot”

Clearly a disgruntled java developer isn’t less important. But a disgruntled java developer isn’t MORE important either. I don’t see anyone declaring that Adobe has abandoned photographers because Lightroom doesn’t work on OS X on day 1. Sure, Java JDK is Apple’s animal to ship, but Apple has a long history of shipping JDKs independently of OS.

The issue isn’t that Java devs don’t count. The issue is that some Java devs want to play the role of dramatic victim here by declaring with all possible shrillness that Apple doesn’t love them.

Gruber’s point remains. Get over yourselves. Recognize that the language/framework/operating system that Sun has put forward is harder to integrate in the spirit that it was intended than almost anything else out there and simply wait for the JDK to ship.

]]> By: Tim Buchheim http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6858 Tim Buchheim Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:45:44 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6858 <blockquote> As far as cited by John Siracusa Ars’ review of Leopard, Apple is abandoning Carbon’s upgrade to 64 bits. So –maybe–, if the existing AWT is based in 32 Carbon, they could be going an upgrade to 64 Cocoa… and this should be a huge effort. But I do not know nothing for sure. </blockquote> AWT on Mac OS X was originally Carbon-based, but Apple switched to Cocoa a few years ago. But I imagine upgrading it to work with 64 bit will be a pain, not to mention all the other work they have to do. (fixing bugs... oh so many bugs, and of course adding all the Java 6 stuff.)

As far as cited by John Siracusa Ars’ review of Leopard, Apple is abandoning Carbon’s upgrade to 64 bits.

So –maybe–, if the existing AWT is based in 32 Carbon, they could be going an upgrade to 64 Cocoa… and this should be a huge effort. But I do not know nothing for sure.

AWT on Mac OS X was originally Carbon-based, but Apple switched to Cocoa a few years ago. But I imagine upgrading it to work with 64 bit will be a pain, not to mention all the other work they have to do. (fixing bugs… oh so many bugs, and of course adding all the Java 6 stuff.)

]]> By: Brendon http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6857 Brendon Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:29:21 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6857 People just don't seem to be able to understand that Java apps on the Mac and the importance of Java are not related. As long as Windows continues to totally dominate the enterprise desktop, Java is the <em>only</em> way that a developer can write enterprise desktop apps on a Mac. Just try and prove me wrong. It's that simple. People just don’t seem to be able to understand that Java apps on the Mac and the importance of Java are not related.

As long as Windows continues to totally dominate the enterprise desktop, Java is the only way that a developer can write enterprise desktop apps on a Mac. Just try and prove me wrong.

It’s that simple.

]]> By: DBL http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6856 DBL Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:10:00 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6856 Rather than being 'buried' in Gruber's quote, your point about other runtimes being ready to be picked up by Apple was exactly the main thrust of his argument, which you've just parrotted here, rather than adding anything (at least in the section where you deal with Gruber). Python 'just builds' as in no work from Apple is required to make it build. Java, on the other hand, waits on a big development effort from Apple, every time. Gruber wasn't talking about the end developer's effort being saved -- he was talking about Apple's. Rather than being ‘buried’ in Gruber’s quote, your point about other runtimes being ready to be picked up by Apple was exactly the main thrust of his argument, which you’ve just parrotted here, rather than adding anything (at least in the section where you deal with Gruber). Python ‘just builds’ as in no work from Apple is required to make it build. Java, on the other hand, waits on a big development effort from Apple, every time. Gruber wasn’t talking about the end developer’s effort being saved — he was talking about Apple’s.

]]> By: Rolley http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6855 Rolley Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:07:14 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6855 Guys, QUIT COMPARING JAVA TO OBJ-C. Run a webserver in Obj-C and THEN make a point. Guys, QUIT COMPARING JAVA TO OBJ-C. Run a webserver in Obj-C and THEN make a point.

]]> By: Drew http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6854 Drew Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:07:04 +0000 http://www.sauria.com/blog/2007/10/30/leopard-java-and-open-source/#comment-6854 There aren't any important apps for the Mac written in Ruby, but Apple didn't really have to expend any effort to get Ruby support going either. If it was a herculean engineering task I'm sure it'd be left to a future update same as Java 6. It would be nice if Apple would give away their existing Java tools to the OSS community Sun's trying to build, but who knows what their licensing agreement with Sun for Javas 5 and earlier even allows them to do with that code? Seriously someone with more insight is welcome to spell it out. Frankly until Apple makes an official statement this all seems a little like doomsday-ish exaggeration to me. Also, anyone care to weigh in on http://www.symphonious.net/2007/10/31/java-5-on-leopard/ ? There aren’t any important apps for the Mac written in Ruby, but Apple didn’t really have to expend any effort to get Ruby support going either. If it was a herculean engineering task I’m sure it’d be left to a future update same as Java 6. It would be nice if Apple would give away their existing Java tools to the OSS community Sun’s trying to build, but who knows what their licensing agreement with Sun for Javas 5 and earlier even allows them to do with that code? Seriously someone with more insight is welcome to spell it out. Frankly until Apple makes an official statement this all seems a little like doomsday-ish exaggeration to me. Also, anyone care to weigh in on http://www.symphonious.net/2007/10/31/java-5-on-leopard/ ?

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